Hi,

we are still struggeling a bit with the base-setup, currently we can get it running in idle and also up to 2.500 revs, but above it gets so rich it simply stalls. The Formula has very, very big injection jets and therefore every value-change has a huge impact on the mixture...

We are running it currently only with one Lambda in one down-tube. Is there a special setting needed to make that work in closed loop (remember, the laverda has no cam-sensor, it injects EVERY crank turn...) or is there no big difference in using one or two sensors?

Thanks

The obvious way is to reduce the values in the InjDur lines. Is this what you are doing?

sure, they need to be roughly 50% of the original values. Problem simply is that the throttle positions in the map Cliff gave us are different to the ones in the original Mapp, the durations can not be taken as they are from a Guzzi and that has a different injector jet size etc. Everything has to be set point for point by hand, as the optimizer is not capable to adjust more than - I think - 10% or so and only minimal changes in the duration mean WAY richer or leaner, which is quiet tough to do...  :-[

Once a base-map has been set, the optimizer will surely help. Ideal however would be a selftuning mode for the base-map. That would be a cool feature...  ;) adjusting all the points at the same time does not really help (tried it, did not work) as - as said - the maps do not really work for the Laverda, even not if all values are reduced by the same %...

Any Idea? Is there anything else that needs to be set to make sure the My16 does not wait for the secound Lambda-signal to appear?

If you know part of the map is too rich, use the global map adjust feature of the ECUController to lean off that portion.
When it's in ballpark the closed loop can do the rest.

Quote:

Problem simply is that the throttle positions in the map Cliff gave us are different to the ones in the original Mapp,

So why not change them to original map TPS?
And how do you know they`re not the same?



Quote:

Ideal however would be a selftuning mode for the base-map. That would be a cool feature...

That is what the O2 targets are for in the map.
You already have a Lambda for that,
is it a wideband?

And how about ignition (I am very unsure about this),
isn`t the 90`s 750 Lav a parallell twin? :-?

_Cliff_ wrote on 07/02/10 at 07:35:31:

If you know part of the map is too rich, use the global map adjust feature of the ECUController to lean off that portion. When it's in ballpark the closed loop can do the rest.

Hi Cliff,

Markus (who does the adjustment) tried it with the global map adjust but it seams the bike is so sensible to the adjustment that anything just a little over or under the right value causes the bike to stall... as said: really big injector jets, therefore very little changes have quiet an impact...

We got it running meanwhile on very little throttle openings up to 3.500 even in a way you can ride the bike up and down the road, but the moment you open throttle just a bit more, it stalls again...  >:(

seams it really needs very careful settings... :-[

greenmonster wrote on 07/02/10 at 11:27:06:

Quote: Problem simply is that the throttle positions in the map Cliff gave us are different to the ones in the original Mapp, So why not change them to original map TPS? And how do you know they`re not the same? [quote]Ideal however would be a selftuning mode for the base-map. That would be a cool feature...

That is what the O2 targets are for in the map.
You already have a Lambda for that,
is it a wideband?

And how about ignition (I am very unsure about this),
isn`t the 90`s 750 Lav a parallell twin? :-?[/quote]

Well - we tried it in both ways: using cliffs TPS-Values and the ones from the original map, however, you can not completely take the values all down at the same %, it simply does not work - for what reasons ever.

Yes the 750 is a 180° parallel twin, ignition advance of the second cylinder is not the problem, we have the value for that. Can you explain a bit more regarding the O2 values? We have taken the ones from Cliffs map but to be honest, I am lacking of some know how how this all works together... can you enlighten me, please?

Thanks

With your setup, you may not be getting the advance you expect because you operate off the crank. You may be a factor of 2 out in both the advance and the RPM at which it happens.

the ignition advance is not the problem, as it just fires "wasted spark", the only thing really making problems is the right setup for the injection... However, Injection advance was set to roughly 50% if I remember right, but will cross-check with Markus.

Any info on the O2 settings? we have seen the several volt-values and simply have taken them from Cliffs map, but are not sure what they really do mean?!? Any advice here really appreciated...  ;)

O2 settings are the Lambda targets in Volt.
14,7 AFR is 1V f e.
More: http://www.theturboforums.com/smf/index.php?action=printpage;topic=119117.0
Starting w all on 13,5 should make the bike run OK.

Btw, what injectors on your bike?
And when it bogs at 3500 RPM,
what does the Lambda tell you?

And again, you do have a wideband Lambda?!?

yes, we do have a wideband lambda with LC1 installed.

The point is there are several voltages given in the map for the Lambda. Which one means what?!? I could imagine one is for top lean maximum, one is for maximum rich, one is for crusing and one for accelarating - but what are the others are fore ( I think to remember 6 values)?!?

When the bike stalls the Lambda is still to rich. The point is that you have several throttle positions and RPM combinations that all need to be set at least in the right ballpark to get it running in closed loop and only then you can opperate with the optimizer, right? As far as I understand it, the optimizer needs 5 firing circles to get to calculate the optimization. if you are way to rich, you don't get 5 circles, the bike simply stalls...  :-/

Around 14 is good f cruising/economy, 13-12,5 f power, see link above f Voltages.
Other values are f transition, acceleration, off thottle etc.

Go f 0,92V/13,5 AF on all, ought to get you in the ballpark.

greenmonster wrote on 07/05/10 at 10:03:02:

Around 14 is good f cruising/economy, 13-12,5 f power, see link above f Voltages. Other values are f transition, acceleration, off thottle etc. Go f 0,92V/13,5 AF on all, ought to get you in the ballpark.

Greenmonster, are you using V as a Lambda sign (that would be a very confusing choice) or are you confusing lambda with voltage? Factory default LC-1 at A/F of 13.5 (Lambda 0.92) is 2.05V.

I currently use targets between 1.81V (Lambda 0.87 or A/F 12.79) and 2.10V (Lambda 0.93 or A/F 13.67). Just using 2 volts for all targets should produce a good running engine (if the closed loop wasn't too slow).

Laverdalothar wrote on 07/01/10 at 17:24:24:

remember, the laverda has no cam-sensor, it injects EVERY crank turn

Are you using accurate deadtime values for InjVOn or is it set to zero all over?

Hi Raz,

not 100% sure what you mean, as Markus is doing the tuning and I am just trying to help him remotely. As far as I know, the teeth-wheel signalizes dead top center via 2 missing teeth and all values are based as an advanced out of that point for the next cycle - right? Markus has - as far as I have in mind - set advances for the injection as well as for the ignition, the second cylinder is also set as a function of - I think - 15 teeth after the 2 missing ones. Is that the answer to your question?

No, InjVOn is compensation for injector dead time [the lag from leading edge of injector pulse until actually squirts fuel] at various battery voltages.

When injecting every revolution, the InjVOn is twice as important to get right, but having said that you will probably do fine without it (using only zeroes) for now. Anyway it's likely the reason you didn't succeed in translating the stock map (that map may or may not have injector dead time included in all its values).

Another note: In Global Map Adjust, if you first press Apply and then OK, the operation you made (like adjusting mixture in part of the map) will be performed twice. Maybe this bug adds to your problems?

Quote:

Greenmonster, are you using V as a Lambda sign (that would be a very confusing choice) or are you confusing lambda with voltage? Factory default LC-1 at A/F of 13.5 (Lambda 0.92) is 2.05V.

Yes, sorry to say but I did. :-[
Excuse me, lothar, raz is right.

Lothar,
there will be a Laverda meeting next weekend near Wuerzburg. Will you attend? I'll be there.
Were are you from?

Hubert

Hi Hubert,

will not be able to make it, sorry... I am from Cologne area. You are having a Laverda, too? Which one?  :D

No no, not me. Just my former (and still) buddies. This goes back to the early eighties. I myself always was Guzzi mounted only.
Nevertheless, a 3C would come quite handy actually.

Hubert

Hi, me again,

we found that the Lambda sensor delivers values only between Lambda 0,5 and Lambda 0,8 currently, no matter what we do. This is heavily rich. we used the original bung from the LC-1, which is quiet long and so the sensor is not really in the exhaust pipe. Any experiance if this makes any difference?

Second to that, the tacho does show values that jump up and down, even if we switch the dip-switch to tacho-readings instead of TPS and other functions from the My16M. Any idea why that is? Seams there is some "noise" coming from the My16M influencing the signal?!? Can that be solved with a capacitor maybe? which size?

Thanks

Laverdalothar wrote on 09/19/10 at 16:57:06:

we used the original bung from the LC-1, which is quiet long and so the sensor is not really in the exhaust pipe. Any experiance if this makes any difference?

The bung that came with my LC-1 kit places the sensor tip inside the exhaust. In some applications you need to use a longer bung in order not to overheat the sensor. I don't think there are any downsides.

The Innovate Forums are up and running again, after having been down for a long time. Lots of useful info there (like things that could cause false rich readings, in case that is what you have)

Hi Raz,

the bung that came with mine is 2,5cm long. The sensor is - as far as I remember - not reaching into the exhaust. What length is yours? I mean the bung!  ;)

From memory it's about half of yours. It's only as long as the threaded part of the sensor. But I don't think this is your problem. With a longer bung you are less likely to overheat the sensor and you are also much less likely to destroy it with condense water on a cold start.

Laverdalothar wrote on 09/19/10 at 16:57:06:

we found that the Lambda sensor delivers values only between Lambda 0,5 and Lambda 0,8 currently, no matter what we do. Thanks

What are you doing? Perhaps what you are doing and what you think you are doing is not the same.
If you are closed loop are you seeing it go to -25%?

Laverdalothar wrote on 09/19/10 at 16:57:06:

Second to that, the tacho does show values that jump up and down, even if we switch the dip-switch to tacho-readings instead of TPS and other functions from the My16M. Any idea why that is? Seams there is some "noise" coming from the My16M influencing the signal?!? Can that be solved with a capacitor maybe? which size? Thanks

The My15M had a noise issue which is why I started putting caps across the spark FETs. I've not seen the issue on a My16M.

Does your ECU have them. They're under the PCB. You could try removing them by unsoldering one leg of the cap. Sometimes the caps can make things worse.

Lothar, PM me and I will share my telephonenr. and email with you.

Hubert

@Cliff: thanks, I'll check with Markus
@Hubert: you've got mail :-)

Hubert,

have sent you a mail but did not get a reply. did you get it, please?

Thanks

Lothar

Sorry! Got everything, 've been just a bit busy.

Hubert