I am in the process of installing two LC-1 O2 sensors, but I don't know which cylinder connects to which input in the My16M.  Has anyone done this yet?

Good question! A related question is: Which cylinder is affected by the CylOffs table? I would think it's cylinder 2.

What I do know is that the sensor pin most far away from the large connector (i.e. the one with R12 as opposed to R12b) is sensor 1.

Question remains, which of them is cylinder 1? I think it's the LH cylinder on a Guzzi, or the front cylinder on a Ducati but chances are I'm wrong on one or both  :-?

All good questions. Unfortunately I don't know off hand.

For the original question, I think this a way to find out, make sure your initial setup up can be swapped around easily.

Make sure map is set to allow tracking at idle - 0,1 cell.
Have one input connected properly and ground the other. If correct you should see one voltage tracking the set voltage ( near constant correction) while the other side you will see the % correction diverge from 0.

If wrong I think you will see both diverge from 0%

Thanks to you both for the info, when I have everything connected, I will answer the question once and for all. :)

I have both LC-1 O2 sensors installed, and Logworks3 shows both are working.  I set the ECU switch for O2, and set inputs to both.  The saved map shows that the inputs are in fact set to both.  ECUController only shows one O2 sensor, so I'm not sure how to proceed.

That's correct. I've never got around to adding 2 to the ECUController. The Optimiser will display 2 if you have that.
The ECUController should log both though.

Two questions:
When I have the Optimiser plugged in, the Rpms go to ~2500 and show 0,5 while TPS is still at idle (137) and the bike's tacho is showing ~1100 RPM.
If AFR=7.35 at 0 and 22.1=5 volts, shouldn't the O2 Targets in the My16M Configuration be negative voltages?
One more thing, in Autotune on the Optimiser, I periodically get a message on the bottom line showing some numbers followed by -> or => and more numbers.  It happens so fast I can't read the whole line.  Does anyone know what that is?

Do you have the normal tacho (dip switch 3 set to on) or the TPS/tacho display? I don't think I understand your first question.

Targets should be negative, yes. But it won't show up as negative except in the settings menu.

That message is telling you Autotune changed a cell. I don't remember off hand how it looks, It's something like coordinate and amount.

Dip Sw3 is on, 1,2, and 4 are off. On the Optimiser it shows:
t137 r2500 approximately, but the bike's tacho says 1100, and the engine is obviously running faster than 1100. If I unplug the Optimiser, the engine idles normally at about 1100.  What do you mean by the Settings Menu?  Do they show up as negative in the map file?  I just checked a map file from yesterday, and it shows:
MyECU Cfg O2=0.00V,-3.00V,-2.75V,-2.40V,-2.25V,-2.00V,-1.75V,-1.50V,

The Optimiser being connected or not should never affect how the engine runs. I have no idea what's going on.

The target voltages should show negative everywhere they can be seen. But when the sensor voltage is shown in the Optimiser, it's not negative. Sorry if I'm just adding confusion  :)

What you said makes sense.  I will recheck what it says when I am running ECUController.  From what I have seen so far, evidently the Optimiser is occasionally making some corrections somewhere in the map.  What I'm having a hard time with is the discrepancy between the bike's tacho and the rxxxx reading on the Optimiser.

By the way, I have been taking pictures of my project.  I will put in a link when I have them posted somewhere.  Just so you know, the uname CONewbie is because I am a newbie from Central Oregon, where there are few, if any, MotoGuzzi owners.

If the tacho is alternating between good and bad every couple of seconds, you have the throttle/tacho feature enabled. SW3 on the ECU set to "on" will disable this.

I maybe wrong but T137 sounds a little high for idle ?
If its a V11 then I think somewhere between 95 and 105 is normal if the Std ECU TPS was set correctly ?
It may be the throttle is further open than it should be for idle but the mixture is off so the speed is slow until you attach the Optimiser and the closed loop values apply ?
You could see how it runs with my map, you may get a clue to whats going on ?

My map is still "work in progress" but its rideable  :)

It's for a V11, Drilled Airbox (Std paper filter) Mistral X-over and M4 Cans with Db killers installed.
Hope its useful.


Code:

# TDC is the pulse count for TDC power stroke of cylinder 1 ( i.e. When the spark fires # CylOffs is the number of degrees between success cylinders ( 0-720) # PulsesPer is the number of pulses for the 720 degree 4 stroke cycle MyECU Cfg TDC=0x1600, CylOffs=270, PulsesPer=48, MissingPulses=3 # CoilCharge is the period in us for charging the coils. 0 for cranking, 1 for running # Warning, Setting coil charge too high can  cook the output transistors and coils MyECU Cfg CoilCharge0=4000,CoilCharge1=2700 # Pressure - mV and mB values defines a line representing the air pressure conversion MyECU Cfg Pressure=249mV,121mB,4751mV,1060mB # There are 8 possible voltage targets available 0-7 # The first number for 0 should be 0.0 and means open loop # For simple sensors where richer is more voltage, all numbers should be positive # For later sensors where leaner is more voltage, all numbers should be negative MyECU Cfg O2=0.00V,-2.25V,-2.15V,-2.05V,-1.96V,-1.86V,-1.76V,-1.66V, MyECU Cfg 2ndO2Sensor=no # RPM specifies the maximum RPM. # TPS specifies the throttle value at idle (no fast idle). MyECU Cfg RPM=8250, TPS=104 # TDCWhileCranking=1 will fire the spark at TDC # TDCWhileCranking=0 will fire with advance from the map MyECU Cfg TDCWhileCranking=0

part 2
Code:

# This table relates to the injector open/close times as a function of voltage # The value here is roughly the time ( in us ) #         16V   15V   14V   13V   12V   11V   10V    9V InjVOn      0     0     0     0     0     0     0     0 # TempR gives the value in ohms of the NTC temperature sensor #Temp C   -30   -20   -10     0    10    20    25    30    40    50    60    70    80    90   100   110   125 TempR   51466 28618 16571  9712  5956  3742  2991  2408  1597  1077   746   524   375   274   203   152   102 # Prime gives the fuel injection time in ms while cranking #Temp C   -30   -20   -10     0    10    20    25    30    40    50    60    70    80    90   100   110   125 Prime      30    30    25    22    17    11     9     8     7     6     5     4 # Crank is the %% boost of the map injection times right after start # this boost decays to 0 over about 20s #Temp C   -30   -20   -10     0    10    20    25    30    40    50    60    70    80    90   100   110   125 Crank      40    35    30    25    20    15    10     9     8     7     6     5     5     5     5     0 # OilT is the permanent choking boost #Temp C   -30   -20   -10     0    10    20    25    30    40    50    60    70    80    90   100   110   125 OilT%    +5.5  +5.5  +5.5  +5.5  +5.5  +5.5  +5.5  +5.5  +5.5  +5.5 # AirT is the barometric adjustment for air temp(based on ideal gas law) #Temp C   -30   -20   -10     0    10    20    25    30    40    50    60    70    80    90   100   110   125 AirT%    +3.8  +3.8  +3.8  +3.8  +3.8  +3.8  +3.8  +3.8  +3.8  +3.8

part 3

Code:

# This defines the throttle breakpoints. This on top of TPS base above THR         898   727   640   576   512   448   384   320   256   192   128    96    64    32     2 RPM         500  1200  1500  1801  2000  2302  2601  2900  3360  3654  4045  4655  5353  6157  7082  8012 SpkAdv 14  8.67  6.80 10.08 15.70 18.28 21.80 22.03 26.25 27.66 27.66 28.13 33.05 35.16 35.16 35.16 35.16 SpkAdv 13  8.67  6.80 10.08 15.70 18.28 21.80 22.50 26.25 27.89 27.89 28.59 33.05 35.16 35.16 35.16 35.16 SpkAdv 12  8.67  6.80 10.31 15.94 18.28 21.80 22.50 26.48 29.06 29.06 29.77 32.81 34.92 35.16 35.16 35.16 SpkAdv 11  8.67  6.80 10.31 15.94 18.28 21.33 22.73 26.48 30.23 30.47 30.70 32.81 34.92 35.16 35.16 35.16 SpkAdv 10  8.67  6.80 10.55 16.17 18.28 21.33 22.73 26.72 30.47 30.94 30.70 33.05 34.92 35.16 35.16 35.16 SpkAdv 09  8.67  6.80 10.55 16.17 18.52 21.56 22.73 26.72 31.88 33.05 33.28 35.39 37.27 37.50 37.50 37.50 SpkAdv 08  8.67  7.03 10.78 16.41 18.52 21.56 22.97 26.72 33.05 33.75 35.86 37.73 39.61 39.84 39.84 39.84 SpkAdv 07  8.67  7.03 10.78 16.41 18.52 21.80 24.14 26.95 32.58 34.69 36.33 39.14 40.31 41.02 41.02 41.02 SpkAdv 06  8.67  7.03 10.78 16.64 18.75 21.80 24.14 27.19 33.28 35.39 38.91 40.78 41.72 42.66 42.66 42.66 SpkAdv 05  8.67  7.03 11.02 16.64 19.69 23.44 27.66 29.77 35.63 39.38 42.42 44.30 45.70 45.23 45.23 45.23 SpkAdv 04  8.67  7.03 11.25 18.75 22.27 26.02 29.06 31.17 36.56 39.61 42.42 44.30 45.70 45.23 45.23 45.23 SpkAdv 03  8.67  7.73 13.13 19.22 24.61 27.42 30.94 32.34 36.56 39.61 42.66 44.53 45.70 45.23 45.23 45.23 SpkAdv 02  8.67  7.97 13.13 20.39 24.14 29.06 31.41 32.58 36.56 39.84 42.66 44.53 45.70 45.23 45.23 45.23 SpkAdv 01  8.67  8.44 13.13 20.86 25.08 29.30 31.88 33.28 36.56 39.84 42.89 44.77 45.70 45.23 45.23 45.23 SpkAdv 00  8.67 10.31 13.59 14.77 25.31 29.30 31.88 33.28 36.56 40.08 42.89 44.77 45.70 45.23 45.23 45.23

part 4

Code:

RPM         500  1200  1500  1801  2000  2302  2601  2900  3360  3654  4045  4655  5353  6157  7082  8012 InjAdv 14   525   525   525   525   525   525   525   525   525   525   525   525   525   525   525   525 InjAdv 13   525   525   525   525   525   525   525   525   525   525   525   525   525   525   525   525 InjAdv 12   525   525   525   525   525   525   525   525   525   525   525   525   525   525   525   525 InjAdv 11   525   525   525   525   525   525   525   525   525   525   525   525   525   525   525   525 InjAdv 10   525   525   525   525   525   525   525   525   525   525   525   525   525   525   525   525 InjAdv 09   525   525   525   525   525   525   525   525   525   525   525   525   525   525   525   525 InjAdv 08   525   525   525   525   525   525   525   525   525   525   525   525   525   525   525   525 InjAdv 07   525   525   525   525   525   525   525   525   525   525   525   525   525   525   525   525 InjAdv 06   525   525   525   525   525   525   525   525   525   525   525   525   525   525   525   525 InjAdv 05   525   525   525   525   525   525   525   525   525   525   525   525   525   525   525   525 InjAdv 04   525   525   525   525   525   525   525   525   525   525   525   525   525   525   525   525 InjAdv 03   525   525   525   525   525   525   525   525   525   525   525   525   525   525   525   525 InjAdv 02   525   525   525   525   525   525   525   525   525   525   525   525   525   525   525   525 InjAdv 01   525   525   525   525   525   525   525   525   525   525   525   525   525   525   525   525 InjAdv 00   525   525   525   525   525   525   525   525   525   525   525   525   525   525   525   525

Part 5
Code:

RPM         500  1200  1500  1801  2000  2302  2601  2900  3360  3654  4045  4655  5353  6157  7082  8012 InjDur 14  5232 12960 12912 12608 12448 12256 12416 13600 13696 13392 13104 12288 12736 13952 13952 13088 InjDur 13  5232 12912 12864 12560 12384 12224 12080 12432 12400 12528 11984 11712 12144 13728 13152 12768 InjDur 12  5232 12800 12736 12448 12272 12128 11440 12400 10928 11952 11472 11200 11552 13552 11936 12160 InjDur 11  5232 12464 12400 12208 10880 10768 11008 11360 11168 11040 10336 10368 10640 11568  8896  9824 InjDur 10  5232 12240 12176 12096 11616 10176 10896 10672 10288  9936  9584  8272  9136  9472  7952  8208 InjDur 09  5232 10816 10768 10064 10768 10304  9488  9712  9632  9216  8832  6896  8048  7344  6880  6848 InjDur 08  5232  9344  9312  9152  9088  8576  8016  8416  8224  7840  7040  6720  6240  6192  6000  5472 InjDur 07  5232  9184  9040  7408  8320  8048  7888  8144  7840  7088  6656  6112  5936  6000  5360  5264 InjDur 06  5232  8928  8608  7280  7328  6816  6800  6896  6608  6880  6080  5440  5456  5472  5008  5104 InjDur 05  5232  7872  6864  6464  6448  6016  6224  6432  6400  6176  5888  4896  4848  5136  4544  4096 InjDur 04  5232  6496  5968  5984  5728  5472  5472  5552  5440  5504  5200  4368  4144  4560  4080  3824 InjDur 03  5232  5392  5136  5280  5136  5008  4656  4960  4864  4768  4624  3984  3776  3840  3520  3488 InjDur 02  5280  4960  4544  4320  4240  4288  4240  4128  4192  4112  3888  3168  3072  3232  3088  3424 InjDur 01  5376  4448  4256  4032  3920  3648  3360  3248  2880  2928  2832  2288  2080  2112  2128  2064 InjDur 00  4200  4200  3500  2656  2624  2592  2640  2544  2432  2576  2928  2912  2688  2832  2224  1936

part 6

Code:

RPM         500  1200  1500  1801  2000  2302  2601  2900  3360  3654  4045  4655  5353  6157  7082  8012 Flags  14  (O0)  (O7)  (O7)  (O7)  (O7)  (O7)  (O7)  (O7)  (O7)  (O7)  (O7)  (O7)  (O7)  (O7)  (O7)  (O7) Flags  13  (O0)  (O7)  (O7)  (O6)  (O7)  (O7)  (O7)  (O6)  (O6)  (O6)  (O6)  (O6)  (O6)  (O6)  (O6)  (O6) Flags  12  (O0)  (O7)  (O7)  (O7)  (O7)  (O7)  (O7)  (O6)  (O6)  (O6)  (O6)  (O6)  (O6)  (O6)  (O6)  (O6) Flags  11  (O0)  (O7)  (O7)  (O7)  (O7)  (O7)  (O7)  (O6)  (O6)  (O6)  (O6)  (O6)  (O6)  (O6)  (O6)  (O6) Flags  10  (O0)  (O7)  (O7)  (O7)  (O7)  (O7)  (O6)  (O5)  (O5)  (O5)  (O5)  (O5)  (O5)  (O5)  (O5)  (O5) Flags  09  (O0)  (O7)  (O7)  (O7)  (O7)  (O6)  (O6)  (O5)  (O5)  (O5)  (O5)  (O5)  (O5)  (O5)  (O5)  (O5) Flags  08  (O0)  (O7)  (O7)  (O7)  (O6)  (O5)  (O5)  (O5)  (O5)  (O5)  (O5)  (O5)  (O5)  (O5)  (O5)  (O5) Flags  07  (O0)  (O7)  (O7)  (O6)  (O6)  (O5)  (O4)  (O4)  (O4)  (O4)  (O4)  (O4)  (O4)  (O4)  (O4)  (O4) Flags  06  (O0)  (O7)  (O6)  (O6)  (O6)  (O4)  (O4)  (O4)  (O4)  (O4)  (O4)  (O4)  (O4)  (O4)  (O4)  (O4) Flags  05  (O0)  (O7)  (O6)  (O6)  (O5)  (O4)  (O4)  (O4)  (O4)  (O4)  (O4)  (O4)  (O4)  (O4)  (O4)  (O4) Flags  04  (O0)  (O5)  (O5)  (O5)  (O5)  (O4)  (O4)  (O3)  (O3)  (O3)  (O3)  (O3)  (O3)  (O3)  (O3)  (O3) Flags  03  (O0)  (O5)  (O4)  (O4)  (O4)  (O3)  (O3)  (O3)  (O3)  (O3)  (O3)  (O3)  (O3)  (O3)  (O3)  (O3) Flags  02  (O0)  (O4)  (O3)  (O3)  (O3)  (O3)  (O3)  (O3)  (O3)  (O3)  (O3)  (O3)  (O3)  (O3)  (O3)  (O3) Flags  01  (O0)  (O3)  (O3)  (O3)  (O3)  (O3)  (O3)  (O3)  (O3)  (O3)  (O3)  (O3)  (O3)  (O3)  (O3)  (O3) Flags  00  (O0)  (O0)  (O0)  (O0)  (O0)  (O0)  (O0)  (O0)  (O0)  (O0)  (O0)  (O0)  (O0)  (O0)  (O0)  (O0)

Cliff, Sw3 has always been on.  The discrepancy is between what the Optimiser rxxxx reading is, and what the bike's tacho says.
Pasotibbs, what you say makes sense.  I will recheck the TPS setting again.  I know it was wrong to start, and I went through the procedure from the shop manual twice, but it is worth checking again. BTW, I have a Sport 1100i which is stock except for the exhaust crossover.

Ok, Raz may be of more help then as I think the normal idle TPS values are different ?

pasotibbs wrote on 08/25/10 at 23:45:39:

It may be the throttle is further open than it should be for idle but the mixture is off so the speed is slow until you attach the Optimiser and the closed loop values apply ?

Closed loop applies even with no Optimiser connected, it just doesn't make permanent changes to the map.

What happens with tacho vs. Optimiser rpm display at higher revs? Can you confirm the tacho is not in "TPS/tacho mode" (even though it shouldn't)?

Btw, note that regardless of SW3 the tacho *will* be in "TPS/tacho mode" when you are in Autotune. It's not that easy, is it?

raz, I am in the process of re-doing the TPS adjustment, and will answer your question when I am finished. 
Thanks for your help.  You too, pasotibbs.

Note that you can use the Optimiser for reading the "voltage" when adjusting TPS. A base TPS of 150 mV will read as a t030 in the Optimiser display, and your Sporti WHB spec for idle at about 380 mV will read as t077. This is much easier than fiddling with the volt meter!

Yes, I just finished the setup using  a voltmeter and checked my TPS with the Optimiser.  The Optimiser says t073, so I must be pretty close.  Next, I will start the engine and check balance with my CarbStix.

After balancing the Throttle Bodies, and putting the Optimiser into Autotune, I ended up with TPS=95, and it is idling at ~1100 RPM.
Thanks, pasotibbs, for the tip that got me started in the right direction, and thanks, raz, for the helpful info about using the Optimiser for TPS calibration.   :)
Now I can start organising the new wiring harness and put the tailpiece back on.  By the way, I still don't know which is left and which is right as far as the O2 sensors are concerned, but it seems to be working OK with left going to R12 and right going to R12b.
Thanks again, and also to Cliff for the help he gave me.

No problem, I thought the TPS looked wrong :)

Here is a link to the pictures I posted on PicasaWeb to show how things were done.

http://picasaweb.google.com/106090307548421468637/MotoGuzziProject?authkey=Gv1sRgCOvxnMyo6oiyfQ#

I used Aluminum tape which is for sealing Air Conditioning and Heating ducts to seal the ECU.  That way, it is easier to reopen if I need to, and the adhesive doesn't dry out like other types of tape.

# Crank is the %% boost of the map injection times right after start# this boost decays to 0 over about 20s# Temp C   -30   -20   -10     0    10    20    25    30    40    50    60    70    80    90   100   110   125 Crank      40    35    30    25    20    15    10     9     8     7     6     5     5     5     5     0# OilT is the permanent choking boost# Temp C   -30   -20   -10     0    10    20    25    30    40    50    60    70    80    90   100   110   125 OilT%    +5.5  +5.5  +5.5  +5.5  +5.5  +5.5  +5.5  +5.5  +5.5  +5.5# AirT is the barometric adjustment for air temp(based on ideal gas law)# Temp C   -30   -20   -10     0    10    20    25    30    40    50    60    70    80    90   100   110   125 AirT%    +3.8  +3.8  +3.8  +3.8  +3.8  +3.8  +3.8  +3.8  +3.8  +3.8

These figures seems a bit odd, pasotibbs.
Crank looks like a Prime table and same values allover Oil & Air T.
How did you end up w this?

FWIW, here is my map for the same area.  Of course, I have a Sporti, not a V11.
#Temp C   -30   -20   -10     0    10    20    25    30    40    50    60    70    80    90   100   110   125
Crank      80    70    65    65    65    60    55    50    35    25    20    15    15    15    15     0
# OilT is the permanent choking boost
#Temp C   -30   -20   -10     0    10    20    25    30    40    50    60    70    80    90   100   110   125
OilT%   +64.1 +53.1 +43.8 +35.2 +29.7 +18.8 +10.2  +9.4  +5.5  +0.0
# AirT is the barometric adjustment for air temp(based on ideal gas law)
#Temp C   -30   -20   -10     0    10    20    25    30    40    50    60    70    80    90   100   110   125
AirT%   +24.7 +19.8 +15.2 +11.0  +7.1  +3.4  +1.7  +0.0  -3.2  -6.2

     Actually, I think I need to decrease the Crank Boost because I have to open the throttle by hand somewhat when I am starting the bike, so maybe pasotibbs' numbers are closer to what I need.
     raz, I think I finally understand what you said in a previous post.  What appears to be random fluctuation in my bike's tacho, is actually alternating between TPS and rpm readings, right?  I read the MyECU User's Manual lots of times but never understood the description of SW3 operation until now.  I thought it only referred to Optimiser indications, and since I never changed the switch from the on position, I never noticed the difference.  Thanks again for that particular post.

greenmonster wrote on 08/28/10 at 19:36:08:

# Crank is the %% boost of the map injection times right after start# this boost decays to 0 over about 20s# Temp C   -30   -20   -10     0    10    20    25    30    40    50    60    70    80    90   100   110   125 Crank      40    35    30    25    20    15    10     9     8     7     6     5     5     5     5     0# OilT is the permanent choking boost# Temp C   -30   -20   -10     0    10    20    25    30    40    50    60    70    80    90   100   110   125 OilT%    +5.5  +5.5  +5.5  +5.5  +5.5  +5.5  +5.5  +5.5  +5.5  +5.5# AirT is the barometric adjustment for air temp(based on ideal gas law)# Temp C   -30   -20   -10     0    10    20    25    30    40    50    60    70    80    90   100   110   125 AirT%    +3.8  +3.8  +3.8  +3.8  +3.8  +3.8  +3.8  +3.8  +3.8  +3.8 These figures seems a bit odd, pasotibbs. Crank looks like a Prime table and same values allover Oil & Air T. How did you end up w this?

It ends up like that when you load an old format map (lacking these tables) with a newer version of ECUControl, and save it again. These sections need to be filled in!

Well spotted Greenmonster I was meaning to ask about that, but as the bike was running ok forgot  :)
I've added the correct values and will see how it runs.

Yeah, these posts make me think I should be adjusting my tables for better starting, too.  Also, since the O2 sensors need to be heated before starting the bike, and the Cal box is under the pillion seat, I am adding a voltmeter to my indicators because the battery voltage drops while they are heating, then bounces back, so I will know when it is okay to start.

You should not heat the sensors before starting. Just start the engine like they were not there. The risk of damaging them is actually higher if you heat them first.

Thanks raz!  It's good not to have to worry about that.

     Because I am using the LC-1 system, I was able to monitor the O2 sensors using Innovate's Logworks3, and the ECU using the Optimiser.  What I discovered is that at 1100RPM (0,1), the AFR is ~11 for the O2 sensors.  Once I come off of idle, the AFR goes up to ~14.  Does this sound normal, or have I missed something in my setup? 
     I also adjusted the Barometric settings in the map to 250mv,150mb,4600mv,1060mb and now my Barometric readings match the local weather station more closely.

Sounds normal. At WOT you shold be richer, like ~13, for maximum power.

As an experiment, I swapped the O2 sensor wires, and started the bike.  Even in Autotune, it runs really crappy, so I am thinking my original setup with left cylinder going to R12 and right cylinder to R12b must be correct.
     I don't quite understand why there are now entries in the Cylofs table which prompted my experiment.  I would have assumed that with an O2 sensor in each pipe, the cylinders would be individually compensated and no Cylofs value would be necessary.
    On another subject, I added an led battery gauge from Custom Dynamics for ~$25.00+shipping:
http://www.customdynamics.com/LED_battery_gauge.htm#LED_Battery_Gauge_with_Remote_Flush_Panel_Mount_LED
I found a 6way connector in my front harness which I think is for some sort of emergency flasher which is not required in the US, and it had switched +12 and ground in it, so I hooked up the monitor there.  It flashes red for voltage below 12, solid above 12.1, amber above 12.6, and green above 12.9.  It flashes green if the voltage gets over 15.25 which can destroy batteries.

COnewbie wrote on 09/19/10 at 13:02:13:

I don't quite understand why there are now entries in the Cylofs table which prompted my experiment.  I would have assumed that with an O2 sensor in each pipe, the cylinders would be individually compensated and no Cylofs value would be necessary.

But the CylOffs is just that: individual cylinder mapping. Instead of actually having one InjDur table for the left cylinder and another one for the right cylinder, the CylOffs table tells you the right cylinder's deviation from the left one. So Autotune will fill it with values if necessary.

BTW, remember that whenever syncing the TB's, you should probably use a CylOffs table of all zeroes and run open loop.

Thanks raz, that makes perfect sense.  I really should have figured that one out for myself.  [smiley=embarassed.gif]

raz wrote on 09/20/10 at 00:56:46:

... BTW, remember that whenever syncing the TB's, you should probably use a CylOffs table of all zeroes and run open loop.

Why that?

Luhbo wrote on 09/21/10 at 05:53:31:

Why that?

With individual cylinder mapping, the closed loop will compensate for the TB imbalance you try to get rid of. And if it already did and put a CylOffs there, you will sync against that instead of getting the TB's equal.

Just to confirm, I zeroed out the Cylofs part of the map, and changed the O2 sensors setting from both to none, then I attached the CarbStix, started and warmed up the bike, and checked the TB balance at idle and ~2500 RPM.  The balance wasn't perfect, but close enough so that it wasn't worth adjusting.  I believe that was because I balanced the TB's before I changed the map to using the O2 sensors.  I have pretty much given up on trying to get the bike to idle at 1100 RPM until it is warmed up.  I use the fast idle lever to get the bike started, more or less like I did with the Marelli unit, except it works like it was supposed to now. [smiley=beer.gif]

Quote:

I have pretty much given up on trying to get the bike to idle at 1100 RPM until it is warmed up.  I use the fast idle lever to get the bike started, more or less like I did with the Marelli unit, except it works like it was supposed to now.

Seems like very normal starting behaviour to me.

raz wrote on 09/21/10 at 06:31:50:

...With individual cylinder mapping, the closed loop will compensate for the TB imbalance ....

I don't think it's a good idea to try to balance the flap angles using the lambda probes. I'd even say that's a rather bad idea.
Or I still don't understand what you're doing resp. why you mentioned the above.

Hubert

Luhbo wrote on 09/21/10 at 21:08:06:

raz wrote on 09/21/10 at 06:31:50: ...With individual cylinder mapping, the closed loop will compensate for the TB imbalance .... I don't think it's a good idea to try to balance the flap angles using the lambda probes. I'd even say that's a rather bad idea.

Then we are in agreement, because that is just what I said. Disable closed loop in order to *avoid* this!  :)

Come on, you're too clever to make postings like that, aren't you.

How should any offset map affect the throttle balancing? At least as long as you stick to the standard procedure using pressure gauges or similar stuff.

Or, puting the same question in the most simple form: what should those poor OEM equipment users do, still out there in large numbers, if it comes to throttle balancing?

Hubert

As a retired Standards Laboratory Engineer, I have to agree with raz.  In order to insure that the TB's are synchronised, you have to eliminate other means of compensation (the CylOffs table, and O2 sensor inputs).  Once that is adjusted as closely as possible, the O2 sensor(s) will "fine tune" any minor imbalances by means of the CylOffs table.  When I reversed the O2 inputs on my bike, the CylOffs table started to show large values.  I followed raz's advice, then put the O2 inputs back in proper order, set the O2 sensor input back to "both", and now the CylOffs table shows only small values.

Okay then, don't want to argue with you and first of all not in this forum, nevertheless I'd most welcome it if you could go a little bit more into detail and explain to a still active engineer how this offset map will affect the pressure readings shown by two pressure gauges attached to the left/right throttle body.

Thanks.

OK, Not to argue, but to do a better job of explaining, (RAZ, correct me if I'm wrong!), here are the details as I understand them.  The O2 sensor(s) are the input to the ECU so it can adjust the AFR by changing the Injector Duration.  CylOffs is that compensation for the right cylinder.  When you change the AFR, it affects how that cylinder performs, and it will change the intake vacuum at the specific RPM where you are adjusting.  The pressure gauge attached to that cylinder will then show the compensated vacuum pressure.  This works, but as the TB's get more and more out of sync over time, more and more compensation has to be applied.  Since the engine is operating closed loop, you may or may not notice the difference, it's just a matter of procedural correctness.  I hope I did a good job of explaining the details. [smiley=undecided.gif]

My opinion is that both cylinders are running at the same rpm, always ;) Next thesis is that the resulting manifold pressure is a function of mainly rpm and flap opening/throttle (all other things like valve size, - opening, cams, pipes etc. should be held constant for now).
At this point I see two ways to go on. One is that we have just a different understanding of what "balancing the throttle bodies" means, the other one is that you or Raz believe that a tiny drop or two of fuel will significantly change the as above mentioned resulting pressure in the manifold.

Hubert

Luhbo wrote on 09/22/10 at 18:34:36:

Or, puting the same question in the most simple form: what should those poor OEM equipment users do, still out there in large numbers, if it comes to throttle balancing?

I'm not sure I understand your point. The OEM users already run open loop so they can just hook up the manometers and sync it. I can too, running open loop or not. But COnewbie should disable closed loop because he has two sensors. I may be wrong, it's just a gut feeling.


COnewbie wrote on 09/23/10 at 04:46:17:

RAZ, correct me if I'm wrong!

I think you got what I meant but like I said, I'm not sure we are right. After all, the vacuum is produced by the rotating engine, more or less regardless of individual A/F's. Maybe this is how you see it, Luhbo?

An extreme example would be this: Sync your TB's. Then kill one of the cylinders, eg. pulling the wire from its injector. Now, are the TB's still in sync while the engine is running on only one cylinder? I can't believe it would be.

I just imagine that if you have imbalance (i.e. a mechanical imbalance), the individual closed loop can compensate a little for it, and this will make real (mechanical) sync harder. Maybe this is not much of an issue, but one thing I'm 100% sure of: Syncing in open loop will not hurt.

Raz, that's indeed what I want to say.
Nevertheless the experiment you give is a bit off - because it's just too extreme. You can't by no means compare the effects of a dead cylinder with those of one getting just 2 or 5% more fuel.
Oh, and you know that I think flashing a different map just for balancing the TBs does hurt, don't you? ;)

Hubert

I tend to think of extremes in order to understand smaller things but maybe that was too extreme  :)

The more I think of it, the more I believe you are right. If it's an issue at all, it's probably academic.

Just guessing:

Wouldn`t two cylinders w almost identical A/F
( meaning Cylofs active)
create the closest to similar pressure on the piston and therefore have very even MAP?

I believe you're right, but with this caveat:
If both TB's have the same opening, and all four valves are adjusted exactly spot on, then both cylinders (assuming perfect sealing of the piston rings), will have the same A/F, and CylOffs would be expected to show 0 throughout the CylOffs map.  The reason I mentioned the valves is because the valve lash affects the timing of the intake and exhaust cycles.  Less lash makes the timing earlier, and more lash makes it later, which can affect the A/F if there is overlap with InjDur or SpkAdv.  That's MY guess!  [smiley=undecided.gif]