Waiting for the new sprag clutch to arrive , gave me some time to read whatever I could find on starting strategies .
Also did some stats on the data I logged from a couple of hundred starts (spinning the phonic wheel)  with the WM ECU .
Came up with a series of maps to test .
Tossed this aside and tried a banzai approach  :-[

a) Reduced the sensor to wheel clearance to .5 mm
    The Guzzi sensor sees the tip of the tooth , the Duc one sees the flanks .

b) Swaped the harness wires to the injectors .
    Though the ign coil wires for the Guzzi and Duc match - obviouslly- Right cyl to Front and Left to Rear , the injector wires don't . Right cyl to Rear and Left to Front ( for the 2002 900SSie at least ) ---> messed up injection timing .

c) Set first rpm breakpoint to 300 rpm
    Seems like the WM ecu fires the injectors at prime values for only a very sort time (0.2s ?) during starting , and above 300rpm uses the maps for inj and ign .

d) Filled the 300 rpm collumn with the injdur values from the logged data (roughly "idle + 50%") .

e) Set Prime and Crank Boost to ridiculisly low values   - no way the bike would start .

I then started increasing Prime until it fired - it would die soon after .
Increasing Crank Boost 5% each step , I managed to bring it to idle   ;D
If , during C/B , rpm rise slowly to idle , it's too rich .
If they slowlly fall , it's too lean .( not my findings these )
Did this for 10 to 80C .

At 10-30C I use no throttle (engine spins faster / better gas evaporation due to stronger vaccum ) untill it fires , then just a bit of tps .
Over 30C , no throttle at all .
No backfires , starts every time  8-)
I only noticed a couple of b/fs when using throttle from cold  :-?

I'll ride the bike some and then try to find out the changes that made the most improvement .

Cheers all

Nice approach! ;)

b. Don`t quite follow you, did you switch anything or not?

c. My (friends) findings show a separate fuel table before start and one after start that is based on the running map.
It is a boost in % related to fuel map lasting for 3-4 mins.
Also mentioned here, end of page: http://www.bikeboy.org/ducati2vthrottleb.html

e. Seems like a good way to find a good start!

b) I switched the wires to the 26-pin connector (harness side) , between pins #13 and #6 .
From diagrams it is ...
#14   Guzzi --> ign left  , Ducati --> ign rear
#20   Guzzi --> ign right , Ducati -->ign front
but ...
#13   Guzzi --> inj left   , Ducati --> inj front
#6            --> inj right  , Ducati --> inj rear

c)Is this pre-start fuel table like the prime table of MyECU , or is it TPS related ?

Being nowhere near as brilliant a mech as Brad is , I was not able to verify his findings - at least over 30 C .
I logged only injdur not AFR , and while there was an obvious spike of 8 - 18 ms , it lasted some tenths of a sec .
And that was for oil T bellow 30 C .
Then , in 3 min , you would expect the oil T to rise and the mixture to lean out . ;)

Quote:

c)Is this pre-start fuel table like the prime table of MyECU , or is it TPS related ?

Sorry, my hex reading friend have no info of that.

Very interesting about your start experiment.

I`ve found that the Prime & Crank figures are well matched.
If you reduce one, you have to add on the other.
I`ve ended up w the V11sport start map supplied when I bought it.

Can I ask what figures you`ve ended up with acc to Prime & Crank?

I'm sorry for the delay . :-[

#Temp C   -30   -20   -10     0    10    20    25    30    40    50    60    70
   Prime      30     30    25    18    14    10     4      3     3      3     3      3
   Crank      80    70    65    50    40    30    20    10     5      0     0      0    

Tested at 10 C and over .
If the motor spins , it starts . Even with a somewhat week battery .
Only catch is , below 30 C , I have to use the starter on fully closed throttle until it fires (1 sec), then immediately open it just a tiny bit .

Angelo wrote on 04/20/11 at 14:43:52:

b) I switched the wires to the 26-pin connector (harness side) , between pins #13 and #6 . From diagrams it is ... #14   Guzzi --> ign left  , Ducati --> ign rear #20   Guzzi --> ign right , Ducati -->ign front but ... #13   Guzzi --> inj left   , Ducati --> inj front #6            --> inj right  , Ducati --> inj rear

Wrong info here  :-[
It should read
#14   Guzzi --> ign right  , Ducati --> ign rear
#20   Guzzi --> ign left , Ducati -->ign front

I was misled by a 1999 V11 Sport wiring that has a mismatch between coils names (DX ,SX) and the legend .
Confirmed this with diagram in the V11 manual
So , injector wires back to where they were .
Noticed a small improvement during starting too  :)

Thx.
Will test your settings & report results back.

Your way does not work f me but start depend on more:

What are your Inj V on, Inj Dur, Spk Adv, Inj Adv, Cyl Ofs values in the first 3 TPS & RPM rows?
What are your Oil & Air T compensation values?
Do you start TDC or from Spk Adv?

Yes , an omission
Have a go with these .


    RPM       300   1100  1400
SpkAdv 02  5.16 12.66 12.19       
SpkAdv 01  5.16 12.19 11.48
SpkAdv 00  5.16 19.45  9.38 

InjAdv 02   300   300   390      
InjAdv 01   300   300   390      
InjAdv 00   300   300   390 

InjDur 02  3200  3264  2512   
InjDur 01  3088  2464  2304   
InjDur 00  3040  1800  1072 

CylOfs 02    +4    +5    +7       
CylOfs 01    +4    +5    +6         
CylOfs 00    +4    +5    +6   

THR  52    25     0  ,  with TPS=74

                 10      20        25       30     40     50    
OilT%     +35.9  +25.0  +14.1   +4.7  +3.1  +2.3
AirT%     +7.1   +3.4    +1.7    +0.0 
Start at TDC 

Angelo, I'm a bit late to the party but I've got a 1999 Cagiva Gran Canyon. It's the 900SS motor with the small valve heads.

For reference, here's the frist three rows from my map that seems to work well for me:

SpkAdv 02  7.73  8.44 12.42
SpkAdv 01  7.27  7.27  7.73
SpkAdv 00  6.80 10.08  8.44 

InjAdv 02   600   600   600
InjAdv 01   600   600   600   
InjAdv 00   600   600   600   

InjDur 02  3456  3264  2512
InjDur 01  3136  2464  1808
InjDur 00  2880  2192  1952

CylOfs 02    +4    +6   +12
CylOfs 01    +4    +5   +10
CylOfs 00    +4    +5   +10

My throttle & rpm breakpoints and tps value are similar to yours.

Pete

On my V11 I found idling easier to be handled with spark advance around max. 5deg, compensating this with a slightly bigger flap opening. This made idling more stable and transition crispier. Also the engine brake feels a bit more comfortable.

And, funny enough, where you went from the "OEM" 500 in row 1 down to 300 I went up to 700 instead :)

Hubert

Pete , I can see a similarity in your values to mine .
Only at idle (0 , 1100) there is a big difference , as I like my idle a bit leaner - 13.6 AFR - which demands more advance .
Higher than this , idle was rough .
I went up to 30 deg adv before the motor started complaining  :-?
When you move away from the best AFR ( for the working conditions ), there is slower burning , needing more advance .

Hubert , I will try your approach on my friend's Mandello Rosso , tnx .

What`s your Prime & Crank tables like, Pete?

Prime & Crank:
I live in Florida, so I never see any temps below 0C

# Prime gives the fuel injection time in ms while cranking

#Temp C   -30   -20   -10     0    10    20    25    30    40    50    60    70    80    90   100   110   125
Prime      30    30    25    20    16    12    11     9     8     7     6     5

# Crank is the %% boost of the map injection times right after start
# this boost decays to 0 over about 20s

#Temp C   -30   -20   -10     0    10    20    25    30    40    50    60    70    80    90   100   110   125
Crank      80    70    65    65    65    60    55    50    35    25    20    15    15    15    15     0