I have a V11 Sport with high compression pistons, it's a real fuel hog.
When I look at the plugs they look ok to me not black but the guys I ride with say it smells rich.
I am a bit afraid to lean out the mixture  incase I overheat something.

What is the best approach

Thanks in advance

Roy

You wont destroy anything just by experimenting. I've been running maps so lean the bike did not run well.

Regarding spark plug color, it mostly just tells you if the idle is lean or rich, unless you turn engine off during load (or cruise), coast to stop and look at the plugs.

raz

I think leanness only damages an engine at high power settings, like an aircraft motor.

You could try a small change like 5% across the entire map  ( maybe leave the bottom left untouched so as not to affect starting and idle )

Your best long term option is to fit a wide band sensor like the LC1 and go closed loop.

Thanks Raz, I am still running the map you sent me, the bike runs with stacks of power from low revs all the way to max.
I have removed the stock filter setup and running pods, perhaps that's some of the problem.
Currently I am chewing through 8L/100 km

Thanks Cliff, If I can find where I stowed the laptop I will lean it out as you suggest

Cheers

Roy

Go back to the OEM configuration (airbox, snorkels, paper filter). I found that any modification of them reduces the airflow. You can tell this from the correction factor the Optimiser shows. Funny enough it's nearly the same with aftermarket cans. They give gains only at higher revs/loads, below the stock ones are unbeatable. It's a pitty they don't look and sound one tenth as good as they perform.

I believe Raz found out that "pods" instead of original airbox was poorer in operation on his 1100 Sporti. I am running K&Ns on the 1100 sporti TBs and am interested in these findings. The airbox was removed as that is where I put the optimiser card as I incorporated the buttons and lcd in a purpose made instrument housing so I would need to rearrange that if I went back to original.

Luhbo wrote on 04/14/12 at 22:56:51:

.... reduces the airflow....

Not around bike and driver but through the engine ;)

Hubert

Yeah, like Luhbo I could clearly see the Optimiser saying 5-10% less fuel could be used in most modes of operation. So despite the better looks of the pods I ditched them and went back to original box with some extra holes in the lid a la Phil Arnold. BTW Phil also confirmed the same thing - on a dyno.

Raz

My experience with pods, I seemed to get a flat spot in mid rev range.
I figured the rubber tubes that connect the throttle bodies to the airbox were acting as a tuned intake so I mounted the pods in the end of those. sure enough the power came right back.

The K&Ns slipped inside and I fastened them in with a couple of self tappers.

Kiwi Roy wrote on 04/19/12 at 20:44:28:

I figured the rubber tubes that connect the throttle bodies to the airbox were acting as a tuned intake so I mounted the pods in the end of those. sure enough the power came right back.

Interesting.

Mad Farquhar wrote on 04/20/12 at 06:57:29:

Kiwi Roy wrote on 04/19/12 at 20:44:28: I figured the rubber tubes that connect the throttle bodies to the airbox were acting as a tuned intake so I mounted the pods in the end of those. sure enough the power came right back.   Interesting.

Yes, you would think that the different characteristics of the pod filters would negate any intake tract tuning.  Good to see.

I'm a smallblock rider, and one of the good traits of the new 2012 engine is that it appears Guzzi may have resonance tuned the intake.  A first for the modern smallblocks.

Velocity Stack, thats the term I was grasping for.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Velocity_stack

I find it interesting how the maps of a bike run in closed loop swell in mid rev range then taper off again.
Heres one of Cliff's for example


InjDur 08  3984  7968  7872  7712  7632  7456  7280  6768  6416  5856  5856  5312  4960  4784  4736  4160

I reckon in theory at a given throttle opening since the injectors operate in choked flow mode (flow rate is constant) opening time equates to fuel flow.
Having said that I would expect the injector time to be quite flat however in mid range because of the "Velocity Stack" effect much more air crams into the cylinder therefore more fuel is required to keep the air fuel ratio constant.

I'm willing to bet if you ran the same engine without the intake connected the shape would be much flatter.

Ok, tell me I'm out to lunch  :)

Your example doesn't show a swelling at midrange and then a taper. Ignoring the first entry which is purely to help clear a flooded engine when starting, the numbers generally decrease with rpm.
The reason for this is that the fuel must match the air going into the engine. The airflow is really controlled by  the restrictive intake tract - filter, throttle, etc. The engine can't really suck more in at higher rpm.
Hence as rpm increases the engine gets less air per stroke.

So much for that theory then  :-?

I will have to find another theory to explain how adding some length to the intake tract seems to improve the power band and why the stock airbox works best.

Thanks for the explanation Cliff, it makes perfect sense.

My explanation ignored any affects of resonances in inlet or exhaust which will cause peaks and troughs on top of what I mentioned.

I finally got around to installing a wide band O2 sensor.
Initial results seem to show the bike running between 11 & 12 %

Am I right in assuming this is too rich, and what should I aim for?

To do a global change what percent change would this be?

Thanks

Roy

There are no direct conversions but 5% across the board would be a good start. ( I tend to leave idle and start values alone )
Better still switch the ECU to closed loop mode and set the voltage targets.

Thanks Cliff
I don't have closed loop capability, no optimiser

Somewhere in the back of my mind I should be shooting for a 14% ratio, is that correct?

Roy

Percent it not the right terminology but 13.5 AFR is good

I'm not sure what you mean when you say you don't have closed loop capability.

I guess I'd better brush up on the instructions, it's so long since I put the ECU together and I need re-training after a coffee break.

So is the correct term 13.5 parts air to one part fuel by weight then?

They call it an Oxygen sensor but I suppose they factor in that the Oxygen is 21% of the air.

I should know all this stuff since I design control systems for chemical plants.


BTW, the O2 meter I have is this one
http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/products/MTXL.php

Cliff,
      I reduced the map by 5% over the board, it seems to be very close now.

A question about the software
It shows the O2 sensor Volts, I don't have my O2 sensor wired in.
Is it possible to wire it in or is their no point?

The ECU will just ignore the input if you are open loop so no need to do anything

Kiwi Roy wrote on 09/19/12 at 13:26:21:

Cliff,       I reduced the map by 5% over the board, it seems to be very close now. A question about the software It shows the O2 sensor Volts, I don't have my O2 sensor wired in. Is it possible to wire it in or is their no point?

According to MTX-L Manual: http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/support/manual/MTX-L_Manual_1.1.pdf

4. Optionally, the YELLOW (Analog out 1) and/or BROWN (Analog out 2) can be
connected to the analog inputs of other devices such as data loggers or ECUs. If
either one or both of these wires are not being used isolate and tape the wire(s) out
of the way. The default analog outputs are as follows: Analog output one (yellow) is
0V = 7.35 AFR and 5V = 22.39 AFR. Analog output two (brown) is 1.1V = 14 AFR
and .1V = 15 AFR. This is a simulated narrowband signal.

Yellow output 1 (wideband) is equal to LC-1 output in MAP examples.

Depending on your ECU there is a different way to wire it and administrator may help. I have a MyP8.

The ECU has a 3 pin header for attaching the O2 inputs ( centre ground ). You should connect the yellow wire to one of the outer terminals.

Count me in as one of the confused, I am slowly realising there is no 'perfect' AFR or voltage target so expecting the MyEcu to know what to do to make the bike right is the wrong approach.  The MyECU does what you tell it to, and only that.  So, my next task is to determine what that is.
LOS, your comments are very helpful to me, please keep up the story.

LOS wrote on 09/25/12 at 00:39:13:

Kiwi Roy wrote on 09/05/12 at 10:05:28: I guess I'd better brush up on the instructions, it's so long since I put the ECU together and I need re-training after a coffee break. So is the correct term 13.5 parts air to one part fuel by weight then? They call it an Oxygen sensor but I suppose they factor in that the Oxygen is 21% of the air. I should know all this stuff since I design control systems for chemical plants. BTW, the O2 meter I have is this one http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/products/MTXL.php Before July I knew nothing about ECUs. I have a -90 Cali III which had been standing in garage for years. I ordered a MyP8 kit and a LC-1 kit. After many twists I got it running (no live WM8) and managed to drive it. I became hungrier and installed a Bluesmirf BT-modem and got it first connected with EcuController. Later I got an ex demo HTC Wildfire S and installed Optimiser3 on it and got it working. I have been waiting for the next version and meanwhile studied closed loop and targets. I created a spreadsheet to train myself, which uses info from Innovate and Wiki homepages - not my opinions. You can see how measured AFR and lambda values are calculated from Voltage. It also shows how Cliff's and raz's target numbers fit in a bigger picture. Raz looking for max power and Cliff smooth drive and economy and Mad in between.  When reading Forum pages I noticed that there are others who are confused too. This could be a start for oxygen facts for dummies(newbies).

In the previous spreadsheet there was a bug concerning narrow band Cali targets.
Now narrow band targets are comparable using AFR and lambda values. A new zip is included.

---

I always sit on the fence. ;D. I am a Libran after all.

My choice of O₂ cell value is more to do with ensuring an element of richness rather than leaning out thus erring on the side of "safety". This was almost a subconscious cautious approach I adopted.

That map is also quite old in the iteration - I may upload a newer one I am working on - you might find that more Razzy.

Top end is not too critical to me - my favourite roads make for 3 or 4th gear work between 3.5k and 7k rpm the most fun.

Horses for courses.
Gavin