Hi all,

Just joined here and getting closer on putting a MyP8 to my ducati.

Is there anyone else here, that has put a MyP8 to a ducati?

The thing is that, unlike a Guzzi, the SPS has 2 injectors/cylinder and I'm just wondering if anyone has done the groundwork for this?  ;)

and, to make matters more complicated, I have understood that the injectors are fired sequentially, not at the same time. (the 996S ducati fires the at the same time, but that engine uses the WM16M ECU).

So, that's my introduction, greetings from Finland.

Marko

Wonder if there should be a limit how many grazy finns may registrate to this forum  :D

Marko's 996SPS seems to use two sensors at the flywheel to sense the crank rpm and phase. Does the older Guzzis using P8 have similar setup ? This is addition to the double injectors seems to create certain challenge in putting MyECU to SPS.

We seem to be close of forming a local "MyECU drivers association" here in Finland. There are already at least 4 MyECU units here that I know of.

br, Juha

The pickups are the same on the Guzzi, so I think that can be sorted.

What I am worried about is the injectors.

but after some e-mail conversations with JuhaV and LOS, I think this can be handled.

The P8 is typically a sensor on the crank ( 4 lugs ) and a sensor on the cam ( single lug).
Two on the crank doesn't make sense.

Yes, that is true. One pickup is on the flywheel and the other on a different wheel, which rotates twice as fast if i remember correctly.

This is all just early stages. We'll be learning by doing along the way.

Next thing i need is a spare P8 box with the connector.
Then I'll be contacting you Cliff about the stuff that's needed inside.

There is also a miniMyP8 that fits into the 16M case

Yes, i know.

But if, and when, I find a reasonably priced spare P8, It will be much easier just to plug and play with the original housing, than to fabricate a place/fittings for the WM16 housing to go to my bike.

and, my plan is to use the current - fried - ecu for the MyP8 and find a new replacement-original, so that I have at least one working ecu on hand all the time.

So, how much for the MyP8 stuff, delivered to Finland?

I checked the schematics of the P8 ECU of a Guzzi and my SPS and as expected, the pin order is exactly the same on both.

I wasn't expecting there to be any differences, but just to be sure.

Of course, the ECU for the SPS has 2 more pins for the extra injectors.

the new ECU is here from Italy, and the bike starts/runs with it (balance/TPS/CO needs to be set.. if I want to use it..)

so the old ECU can now be cannibalised.

The P8 uses those external amplifier-thingies for the sparkplugs. Any advantage in skipping those and putting in for example coils that are built on the spark plug cap? Just a thought..

Here's a pic of the chip that was inside the new ECU.
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-zKaCp2VMOl8/UIgprspszzI/AAAAAAAADfc/OhlqO3yIgdA/s436/20121024_184429.jpg

I just took the old chip from the old ECU and put it in.
The old chip is the one provided by Ducati, to be used with the carbon-Termis.

Hi 996

Nice bike you have there. I've ridden a lot of ducatis including some 996's and have a old 900SS.

I think you should adjust the new P8 so the bike runs well. I think if you have a good base line it will be easier to sort the MyP8.

You are talking about COP, or coil on plug. There are also coils with inbuilt igniters.
http://www.efi-parts.co.uk/index.php?productID=238

I think at this point you should modify as litle as possible and when you have the bike running good, you can mess with it and try to improve it.

Modifying is just another thing to get confused if thing dont go well.

You are going to put the injectors in paralel? I think ducati used the P8 in the sps because of  injector duty cycle issues.

Cheers

Rick

I'm also thinking of using one of these coils in the future, the wasted spark one. 

About the coils.. that's just an idea I'm throwing around. Definitely not doing it before I have the MyP8 working.

Funny thing, looking at the link and the site you provided.

It seems that the amplifiers that are on the SPS, are some sort of dual channel setups. but the thing has only 1 spark plug/cylinder?? I don't get it, but then again, maybe I don't need to...

this further proves to me that the Italians are in their own league, when designing and assembling motorcycles.. I used to have a Guzzi LM V.. comparing Guzzis (and nowadays Ducatis) at meetings and such, even if the bikes were of the same year, thay still had different parts among them.. go figure.. I guess they just picked the first part from the parts bin and thought, "this will fit.."

Cheers,
Marko

996SPS wrote on 10/30/12 at 19:34:30:

... I just took the old chip from the old ECU and put it in. The old chip is the one provided by Ducati, to be used with the carbon-Termis.

Do you not have a possibility to read out and compare the chips?

Hubert

Yes I do, but not at home.

and then I would need to convert the HEX garbage into something more readable too, or not?

For a start look at Wayne Orwigs page, for instance. The web might come up with more  links to similar freewares, you need to search for it.

Hubert

I used Wayne's ECUEDIT.EXE.

worked perfectly for my BIN file!

Thanks for the tip!

hmm, was a bit too quick to celebrate.. it seems that it can only handle WM16 data, something is not right with the data presented from a WMP8 bin-file. e.g. rpm scale does not start from zero..

Have to investigate more.

996SPS wrote on 10/31/12 at 18:03:00:

About the coils.. that's just an idea I'm throwing around. Definitely not doing it before I have the MyP8 working. Funny thing, looking at the link and the site you provided. It seems that the amplifiers that are on the SPS, are some sort of dual channel setups. but the thing has only 1 spark plug/cylinder?? I don't get it, but then again, maybe I don't need to... this further proves to me that the Italians are in their own league, when designing and assembling motorcycles.. I used to have a Guzzi LM V.. comparing Guzzis (and nowadays Ducatis) at meetings and such, even if the bikes were of the same year, thay still had different parts among them.. go figure.. I guess they just picked the first part from the parts bin and thought, "this will fit.." Cheers, Marko

Hi Marko

You have to see that the P7/8 was designed for cars, so the 4 coil outputs and 4 injector drivers. I've read somewere that the P7 was designed for the Ferrari F40 and used 2 of them, but not sure. :D

Newer bikes are much more alike, but on the old days, that is true. Most italian brands had severe debts to supliers but still had to sell bikes to survive so they used what they had on the workshop.

Good luck on your project

Rick

Got the parts from Cliff last week.

Started the assembly this week. Luckily we have a good selection of tools at the office. it would be a pain to do it at home, on the kitchen table.. :-)

Also, Cliff provided me with a 'base' map, obviously designed for a California.

any members here care to share their Ducati maps to me? mostly interested in the InjAdv's. And what about the RPM's, I know my SPS will rev higher than a Cali..

$hit, I probably need to change the belts before I get the engine running again. They were supposed to be changed last winter.. but my mileage for the past two summers has been so low, that I postponed it.. can't do that any more.

I've successfully started my bike with the new MyECU.

map used was the one Cliff provided (cali10.ecu) with just a couple minor changes.

we tried both a pc connection with ecueditor (1.55) correction: version was of course 1.51, and android optimiser, latest version.

first thing noticed was that when the power is turned on, the fuel pump does not stop after a few seconds? this is strange.

seond, the sliders on the ecueditor do not seem to have an effect when slid back and forth? the change should be immediate, right?

also, cell edit on the android app while the engine was running, was behaving a little oddly. must test more to get good symptoms.

that's all for now, nothing was broken. I'm happy.  ;D

For the fuel pump there are the following possibiliies
1) Output of FET is grounded
2) FET is damaged
3) Input of FET is being held high
4) Firmware of chip is corrupted
5) The chip is seeing engine pulses or noise

First check the output of the chip to see if you are getting the 2 second high pulse. If not repeat the check that particular pin bent slightly outwards so that it is out of the socket ( remove chip completely first !! )

Thanks Cliff,

Need to check those.

The 20 cm of snow is slowing the testing down a bit..

Not much happening on this side of the globe.. Temperature reads -18.2 celsius and maybe 25 cm of snow. Christmas is just around the corner..

I predict that my next update will come in the year 2013.


In the meanwhile, enjoy the holidays and stay safe.

Well its about plus 12 degrees here, 2 inches of water across half my lawn and of course it is still raining with a  featureless dull grey sky.

A typical UK Christmas.

Still the nights will start to get a little longer from today on and then summer and........ 8-)

Its 7am here and 27C and humid. Going to be 31 today and 34 tomorrow with a colder ( 25 ) southerly change expected on the 25th.

Have a good one all.

well, it's been months now, and nothing has happened with my tuning..

Still snow on the ground and during the nights it drops below zero..

frustrating..

Soon we will start getting something done, I will be pestering JuhaV with multiple questions.
During the winter been trying to dig up info about the Ducati P8 maps and have gotten some info with the help of TunerPRO and some helpful online friends.

Also, need to look in to the fuel pump issue.

A friend has just asked me a question about the P8 version.  He has just acquired a s/hand item and the fuel pump will not run - can someone tell me what the dipswitch positions should be please ?  These are all "on " at present......
TIA.
Dw.

and , no , I can't just "try them" ,the Ecu and the bike are separated by 120 miles  ::)

All on is not a proper state. Mine are set to ON,OFF,ON,OFF
Switch position wont stop the fuel pump, although switch 4 might delay it a few seconds.

I think mine are also on, off, on, off.. that's the default, if I remember correctly.

Thank you .

Does the Guzzis have a linear TPS?

Ducati doesn't.

So,

here's a nice pic I made:

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-kfya58Et13c/UWPlPjVsrTI/AAAAAAAAD4s/9gddZoOkphU/s483/MyTPS.jpg

Green is original MyECU TPS points.
Blue is original Weber Marelli TPS degrees (x10, for clarity)
Brown is new, calculated MyTPS values, calculation formulas I took from here:
http://forums.ducatipaso.org/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2804
I think He's a member here too.

Does this look ok?
Shouldn't the calculated line be a little closer tot the WM line, to 'imitate' it better? That's what we are trying to accomplish here, right?

So, should I just manually put the values in, to imitate WM, or should I just use the default MyECU line.

What are the pro's and con's with these approaches, linear vs. non-linear?

I'm on a roll here..

another thing that is puzzling me..

The maximum opening time of a an injector is roughly ~11ms,  at 10.5k rpm, (996 rpm limit) due to the length of the duty cycle.

I have obtained the original fuel map of my SPS and there are values over 11ms in it.

Remember, that SPS engine originally uses dual injectors, fired sequentially at higher RPMs.

In the beginning I am going to be running single injectors. this will get me started and running, but eventually I will run out of injector time.

If I wire the second set of injectors parallel to the other injectors, I will most likely run in to problems at low RPMs/small throttle openings, due to shortness of injection time and such.

Thoughts?


I am far from running in to these problems yet, there's STILL snow on the ground here, but I want to get a head start on all this $hit.

Figured out the fuel pump issue.

Bad soldering on the leg of the FET, it wasn't connecting with the resistor.

Next thing to figure out is the cold start. My SPS has always been a poor starter and I bet it doesn't get any easier with MyECU.

/edit: picture

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-ZhfNK4SLp5A/UWrLE3nhoRI/AAAAAAAAD7M/-fPOXmHfEow/s677/20130414_135919.jpg

The normal 996S uses 2 injectors in parallel. I've ridden 2 of them, both with ultimap chips, and the fueling was nice, so your bike should run fine with both injectors.  The 996s has 2 green injectors, one in each side of the port.

I wouldn't  worry too much about the throttle set points. They are just reference points to your map. From cliffs map I just made some small changes like the top row. The Tps never goes to 1024 so you can check the maximum voltage your Tps goes and adjust the top line. Mine goes to 1000( aprox 4.80volt)

As you start tuning with the afr you can see the cell's you use more and make slight changes according to that. If you ride in the city and cruise at low speed I would probably have 1 or 2 more rows devoted to the lower throttle openings and less at the top. With an open ecu you have this flexibility.
Be very smooth with your throttle and let the closed loop do it's work. In my experience the afr never gets correct at first, so give it some maps to get it right. Dont do very big logs at first. More smaller logs give the chance for the map to evolve faster and get the air fuel to a point that the bike is happy with it and you can ride longer distances and is safer for the engine. The worst part for me is the part throttle at lower gears were you have ride a bit crazy on the streets. 8-) 

Cheers and good luck on your project...

some progress;

I have a hard time understanding why this thing does not start?

I've tried TDC=0 and TDC=1, I've tried low amounts of fuel, I've tried crazy amounts of fuel(all the corrections and parameters on top of each other make it complicated.)

I tested with JuhaV the original WM ecu and it fires both injectors at the same time during start up. We used an oscilloscope. The MyECU does this too, right?

the thing is, that since this machine is originally a poor starter (due to small starter, bad starter ratio, high compression, battery, etc.) I really do not want to stress the system any more than I have to. I really do not want to break/fry my starter, starter sprag wheel, etc.

We tried all sorts of map combinations (we changed e.g. InjVOn, Crank, Prime, etc..)

and it still would not start. the engine was warm. I had ridden it with the original ecu prior to our tests.

and, when I plugged the original ecu back on, it would start instantly.

CO, Idle, TPS and balance are set spot on.

Next thing I will do is solder the second injectors parallel to the first ones. It looks like the WMP8 is using them all the time.
Maybe the fuel atomization will be better at startup, once both injectors are firing and the injector sprays meet in the middle, just under the butterfly. Now, with one injector, it probably just squirts directly to the opposite wall.

also, need to really check the timing of the injection vs. the spark. when does it REALLY happen on both the original ECU and MyECU.

I suggest you go back to my original map.

Next you should capture a log from the ECU while cranking - for just a few seconds.

Then send me the log

we did the testing in Juhas garage, with the ECU connected to a PC. I'll se if I have some older logs on my Tablet or Phone.

I have also tested the "Cali" map. not a significant improvement. or worse either..

When I first got it running on the Cali -map, long time a go, it wasn't easy starting then either (with a warm engine).

now, when we get +5 to +10 celsius mornings here and I REALLY need to go, I'll probably have 4 to 6 atttemps, and after that the battery is so low, that it won't start no matter what. My battery is good, this I know. Probably due for replacement next year (at ~100 EUROs..)

all this is not a problem at home, where I can have the bike on a charger constantly, if needed. But when I am traveling home or abroad, there is no such luxury, unfortunately.

/edit:

oh, BTW: the real time sliders for injection time and ign. advance do not work with MyP8 and ECUControl v.1.51. (Juha said that for the MyM16 they work.)

YaBB Administrator wrote on 04/04/13 at 08:43:59:

All on is not a proper state. Mine are set to ON,OFF,ON,OFF Switch position wont stop the fuel pump, although switch 4 might delay it a few seconds.

Wait, shouldn't SW1 be OFF, to enable closed loop operation?

I say this based on the MyECU User Manual.

You are correct sign216 but lets not confuse the situation. That has nothing to do with his problem of starting and the context of those switch positions was not in relation to closed loop operation.

Okay.  Should have read the entire thread.

Couldn't find any recent logs.

I'll have to log some starts.

I don't have closed loop at the moment, eventually I will. (If things don't break before that)

heres a new logfile.

after not starting with myecu, i plugged the weber marelli back and it fired within 5 secs.

let me know what you make of it.

/edit: ok, how do I add an attachment?

I posted the log to the maps -section.

I suggested you go back to my original map and here is why.
You have made changes that pretty much guarantee the bike will not start.

You have changed the first RPM break from 500
RPMS 1000 1500 2000 2749 3501 4502 5000 5499 5752 6250 6745 7500 7796 8242 8601 10997
From the owners manual "The 500 RPM is needed for starting so don't think you can remove this. The 1100 RPM column should be set to match your idle speed. There is normally little reason to change these values."

You have taken out all the fuel required for starting
Prime   16   16   15    4    4    4    4    4    4    4    4    4
and post start ( not that you would get here )
Boost   80   70   65    0    0    0    0    0    0    0    0    0   15   15   15    0

I don't see any resets while cranking so that is one good thing.

Go back to my map and try starting without any modification apart from TPS.

prior to these tests the first RPM break was 500. moving to 1000  was because somtimes during starting the rpms would jump over 500 and I thought the engine the thinks it is running. anywy, noo significant chage.

also, I've played with the crank quite a lot, to no avail.

I'll do a similar test with the cali map and get the logs.

Btw, I now have all 4 injectors working.

The original WM was using them all from the beginning.

I did a test with the cali.ecu map.

log is in the other section of the forum.

does it look better or worse than the previous attempt?

You need to also provide an accurate account of what the logs capture.

It looks ok to me. It looks like there was no throttle applied at all and yet it looked like the bike started 3 times but quickly died.

I think the map needs to have more fuel as it seems to start with injector pulse ~12ms but when its running it drops to 2 to match the map it dies.

You haven't set the TPS to suit your bike yet ( wouldn't affect these results ). You should change the 110 to 60

MyECU Cfg RPM=8064, TPS=110

The quickest way atm to add more fuel would be to modify this line. First try doubling these numbers then triple

InjVOn   1000  1000  1100  1200  1500  1700  2000  2500

Thanks,

I'll take a look some time. Unfortunately this is very slow going forward on my part..

It's weird that the log shows RPMs way past 1000rpm, but the engine never ran during the test. Perhaps just one - two coughs of trying to spin faster.. maybe that's what they are.

Another test done. Also a video! First on the a test with the MyP8 and then in the end a start WMP8.

Log and link in the other thread.

The weather is so fine, I'll go for a ride now.

Video works well.

Don't leave the tablet on the bike. I see a disaster looming.

No firing at all. Maybe there is too much fuel. Does it smell fuelly.
Can you send my the log for verification.

Restore the injvon and try reducing the prime values by 2.

The log is attached to the other thread where the video link is too. I guess you found it already.

And now for some censored words.. @#$#@& *&#$$*@ &&#***@

Took a ride and now she decides to run on one cylinder randomly. I've had this before, but not as bad as today. Limped home for more than 50 kms.  I'm suspecting coils and/or leads.

Just what I need.. another problem.

Back to the starting problem; even if it was getting too much fuel wouldn't it still atleast try to start?
And remember I am now firing on all 4 injectors.
As for the tablet; I usually of course hold it in my hand but now I had the phone taking the video.

Cliff, can you see in the log file if the pulses from the sensors are arriving similarly to a California? just to be sure the timings are correct.

Did you put the "!" in the log?

The log doesn't tell me anything about pulses but I'm only seeing one line near the end that has an RPM different to the base of 250 and I can see where you are cranking from the battery voltages. The previous log showed a reasonable amount of RPM changes.

If this log matches the video I would expect to see more. The map changes don't explain this. Maybe there is some fault in the ECU.
It may be quicker to send the ECU back here so I can check it out.

YaBB Administrator wrote on 06/17/13 at 07:29:46:

Did you put the "!" in the log?

No, not that I know of?

The reason for me asking about the timings vs. a California is because, I am baffled by the starts.

Even if the fuelings were +/- 50-100% off, I would assume the engine would TRY to start. It would cough, spit, sputter, shoot in the pipe and do all sorts of things.

NOW, all it does is spin, spin, spin. Not a sign of even trying to start.

On the other hand, if the spark is 90 degrees, or 180 degrees wrong, it will definitely not start. That's why I want to know if the pulses are the same in a Ducati and a Guzzi.

Are they supposed to be? I would assume so.

Have you ever actually looked inside a ducati running a P8 computer?

Next thing we will do (after I figure out the running-on-one-cylinder-problem) is hook a strobe light and look for timing marks and sparks and so on, to make sure we are seeing sparks at the correct time.

I'm not yet prepared to send the ECU over, but if that's what it takes, then I will do it at some point.

Oh, and yes; the video and the log are the same instance.

Thanks for all the input so far!

oh, and one more thing;

As you may remember, I did get the engine running once with MyP8, in the winter. That was with a warm engine and the Cali.ecu -map.

So that indicates that the ECU is not faulty. At least wasn't back then.. ;-)

I will try once more with a warm engine and also try to get it on video. Need to get my friend there with his fancy small helmetcam..

One of the earliest MyP8s went into a Cagiva which has the Ducati engine and there was no timing difference for that.
Occasionally Ducati do something complete different like they did with a variant of the 15M but so far nothing I have seen was different timing wise.

Hi Marko

You need to forget cold starting for now in my view at least...

You should concentrate at getting a reliable idle on your bike as the first rows of the map are very important for getting the bike to start.

Having a look at your video the bike start but your idle isn't  right and dies just after.

Leave your bike running with the stock ecu until the fans run and start form there with the MyECU.

Do you have a lambda sensor on the bike? I recommend closed loop as well as it helps to keep the bike running and and then you can correct the map.
The android app is very helpful for this as it shows the percentage of correction the ecu is applying.

I saw another video you posted and the bike started. That was with just one injector? You need to remove fuel from your map now that you are running both injectors.



Concentrate your work in getting your bike to start when hot and stable idle and get from there. This worked for me.


Any question I can help...

Cheers

Rick

I don't share Rick's opinion about forgetting the cold start for now.
I actually use these values for my V11:


Code:

# This table relates to the injector open/close times as a function of voltage #         16V   15V   14V   13V   12V   11V   10V    9V InjVOn    700   800   900  1000  1100  1200  1400  1700 # # TempC   -30   -20   -10     0    10    20    25    30    40    50    60    70    80    90   100   110   125 Prime       5    15    25    24    23    22    20    17    11     7     6     6 Crank       3    60    60    60    60    55    35    15    10     4     3     3     3     3     3     3 OilT%    +0.0 +28.1 +44.5 +35.9 +28.9 +24.2 +22.7 +18.8 +13.3  +0.0 ####### RPM         500  1000  1300  1801  2100  2401  2702  3001  3351  3703  4105  4901  5800  6613  7716  8064 ####### InjDur 00  3504  2544  2608  2416  2128  1520   272     0     0     0     0     0     0     0     0     0 ###

My experience is that a lot of fuel gives good response, firsthand, but then bears the risk of drowning it if you have too many starting attempts. I usually hold the button not longer than 1 or 2 seconds, pause 1 or 2, then press again. It should not take more than 3 goes, otherwise add another unit at the actual temperature (from 20 to 21).
Remember, it's milliseconds. That's about twice of what you have, or maybe only I have that,  at full bore, so changing from 20 to 22 is a huge step. Also worth remebering is the fact, that as long as he RPMs are below the first column the fuel is controlled only by this single line.

BTW: a 750 Breva ecu or one from a 800cc Ducati starts (and idles) the 1100cc engine perfectly, so with your bike the above values should work similar.

Hubert

Hi Hubert

You can have the prime row perfect but if the bike dosent idle properly, it's a no go and it's easy to be going in circles. I talk from expirience as there no start maps for my bike!
I had to do all from scratch... :D

You have to remember that Marko 996 is a dual injector bike so a map for a single injector bike wont work without reducing all the values. Probably halving your map values would work...

Thank you very much Hubert and Rick for your ideas and views. This is the kind of feedback I am looking for.

I do not have the Lambda connected right now, but I will soon (again).

Looking at the values of Hubert's map, I would say that I am in the ballpark, maybe max. +/-50% difference at some points or values. That's what is strange. How picky can this machine be? I mean, if the  map is anywhere near running state, why doesn't my bike even try to run?

Or does everything have to be spot on to get it running? I hope not. I do not have the time and nerves for that.

@Cliff:

One thing that comes to mind; how can I increase the spark with the CoilCharge -value (and also be sure not to fry the coils)? maybe if the spark isn't strong enough and due to the fact that compression is quite high, it's not starting. Just an idea...

At the end of the video I posted, where the bike starts, that is where the original ECU is used.


I am putting a new set of used coils to my bike today, to see if that cures the problem of running on one cylinder intermittently(with the original ECU). After this I can again concentrate on MyP8.

And during the weekend, I hope to get to a track again!

Anytime, Marko.
I read also Rick's comments, I still don't agree with him.
Starting is managed by two parameters: the "TDC=1" option and the line "Prime" at its actual temperature point. Having the Prime line matching the engine will respond, or 'jump' as we say, regardless what values are in the idle line. His engine doesn't, so the Prime value is not correct. Try it 2 times (short bursts), then increase the number by 1 or 2. Repeat. Try starting 2x, increase, repeat. It works that way.
In case you think you've drowned it hold the throttle open. If this gives a response then reduce the former increased figure.
That's how it works with working equipment.

Make clear what injectors your bike has and how the OEM triggers them. What is their flow rate? Do you have any figures? At what system pressure?

Make sure the rest of the bike works and also that the ecu is built up correctly. I've seen you've run into some problems during the assembly phase. These are all corrected?

Hubert

Hi Guys, I don't disagree with you Hubert but we a have a different way of doing things, and if they get the job done, that's fine by me. I think Marko needs to find what works for him.

For sure don't want to start a big discussion on this forum...

For me prime pulse is just one phase of starting as above 500rpm the ecu reverts back to the map so that why my opinion that you need good values on your idle positions so you know you have one problem and not multiple. That is  why I say is easier to sort your idle when the bike is hot and the start to work on your enrichment's over time. You know the bike runs and how much fuel it needs to idle.


Sorting the starts without knowing if the bike runs properly doesn't make sense to me but again different heads have different ways of seeing things...

I had a close look at the video the bike starts for a fraction and the dies. The reason the bike died in my opinion is not the prime pulse.

Actually in my view there are six parts of map that contribute to reliable starts and work on different parts of the starting procedure. You have to be methodical adjusting all these values.
The ones you say plus the 500 row,idle row, the after start enrichment and the permanent choke. 8-)
On my bike, I had to modify all this parts so bike doesn't die after 20 seconds...

Hubert, your procedure makes sense, but I've tried that and doesn't work for me.
If you think why you need a prime pulse in starting an engine, you will see your procedure may work on many occasions but not all...

When I tried something like you describe, I would get the bike to start, and think to myself, yes! nailed it, only to try to start the bike next day and fail! ;D

The prime pulse need to be so big, first off all to compensate for any air in the fuel system, and because most of the fuel isn't burned when the intake and the valves are cold. These parts are cold and the fuel forms droplets that doesn't mix with air so to compensate this...

continuation of the first post...  :D

,you need loads of fuel... After the first prime pulse, you  get fuel condensation and it tends to stick to the walls of the intake and your prime pulse will be different next time you try. In my view you only have one chance a day to get this value correct, when you don't have any fuel on the intake.

Very time consuming but it's the only way that I get repeatable results on my bike. Maybe my bike is more sensitive to fuel mixture as it is a 4 cylinder wasted spark.

Now be careful with cranking your bike like crazy. On ducs that only leads to sprag clutch failure, and again I talk from experience. Me and my brother have 5 ducatis in the family.

For sure check your hardware  but you had your my ecu running on a previous video. That was single injector right?

Marko, you will need to get the nerves!

If you think all the troubles me and cliff had just to make my ecu run! Something like 20 or more firmware revisions, ignition driver failure, injection driver failure, first it dint rev at all, then 4k, then 10k, next new 16mhz firmware, work well on the test bench, didn't past 3k on the bike. It was a nightmare and sometimes I just thought to myself, just forget about it, but now I have a working unit. 

Cliff and I continued moving forward with the project and was the genesis of the mark7 edition of the My16.

You need to be methodical and take you time.

Good luck with your work!

Cheers

Ricardo

Thanks again for both of you for your posts.

About the injectors; they are IW724 and flow according to data found on the net is somewhere in the region of 300cc/min. Pressure in the fuel system is if I remember correctly, 3bar. (or was it 3,5 bar?)

About the ECU itself; Yes, I had some soldering errors on it, but they are fixed and I hope that's the end of that. Everything is possible of course..

The reason for me trying to start this bike cold is that basically you can do it only once a day (to test the cold starting features). then you have to wait a long time before everything is cool again.

I understand the two ways of methods offered her to tackle my problems and in a way, both are right.

Maybe I should get it idling perfectly when warm and then try to do the same when cold.

I will definitely report back here when ever I do something and report any logs videos and findings..
If I would be doing all this on my own, I would have given up long time ago..

My history with this bike starts in september 2005, when I bought it from Germany with 19000 km on it. it now has almost 65000 km on it.

I have had so many mechanical and electrical problems with this bike during the past 8 years that a person with a shorter fuse would have sold/dismembered the bike LOOONG time ago.

unfortunaltey my old blog dissappeared in to byte-heaven.. there I had reported all sorts of findings and such along the way.

every time I thought I figured out some problem and got it fixed, another problem popped up. Now the latest is this running on one cylinder. It has done it many years, but usually only 1-2 times a summer and always a very short time, max 30 sec. now last saturday, it happened again and I had to ride 50 km's, more than 30 minutes on/off/on/off with 1/2 cylinders.. frustrating to say the least.

now I am off to put the new coils to it and tomorrow I will test ride.

Thanks all..

So it's this one:
http://www.bikesportdevelopments.co.uk/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=IW724

It's obviously also taken for the 4 valve Guzzis - one per side only. If you have them hard wired in parallel it's an interesting configuration I'd say. Can't say if half the on-time really does the trick. At least it's for sure not what Marelli/Ducati once had in mind when they did the layout.

@ Ricardo
You say 'cranking like crazy'. Then how often can one start his Ducati before the starter mechanism gets busted? 1x per 100 km oder so? ^^

Hubert

Nothing much to report, other than I almost burned my bike on friday while test riding with the new coils.. Had a split in the fuel line above the rear cylinder.  :o

Sunday I was on a race track. Perfect weather.

I hope to get back to MyP8 testing this week.

Aaaand the running on one cylinder is back... $hit.

Going to change the ignition modules next.

Question to Cliff:

Do the ignition modules need to be used with MyP8?

The early versions of the MyP8 had the capability to  drive coils directly but as the feature was never used I removed it.

This lack of spark is on a running engine or you're not seeing spark while trying to start the bike?

This running on one cylinder -problem is with the original ECU. Has been with me for several years, on and off every now and then,

Haven't done anything with the MyP8 in weeks...  :-[

Before you start swapping all those expensive parts one after the other you could try to add some extra cables in parallel to the existing harness. Maybe it's just a problem with the cables or - even worse - with the connectors.

Hubert

Thanks for the tip Hubert.

Lucky me the modules are not very expensive.. at least the alternatives. I bet the original ducati/weber marelli part is.

I'll be updating my blog on findings and progress whenever something happens.

If you wanted to do away with the modules altogether it wouldn't be a big job to add add a couple of FETs inside the ECU to do the job. ( and rewire the modules out )
You'd want to be sure you've identified the problem first.

Checked your blog: the new ones obviously weren't that cheap :(
Instead you might just swap the existing ones, front to back I mean. If you say the rear cylinder gets off from time to time, then after swapping the suspect parts the front one should show these symptoms.

Hubert

I am not sure if it is the rear cylinder every time that is acting up. there is no way of checking it while riding.
Long time ago, when this happened, I had just started the bike and I was at a petrol station, I could feel the exhaust and that was when I knew it was the rear cylinder.

I have found another alternative for the marelli ignition module. I will test it and if it works, I will get also another and be done with it. It was 21 EUR.

Ok, spring is almost here, so time to revive this thread.

I haven't done ANYTHING to the bike during the winter..  :-[
It sits and looks exactly the same it did in August...

I need a good oscilloscope to check the timings and durations of the original ECU's injection pulses at start-up.

When starting with MyP8, does the ECU ignite at every TDC, or just at power stroke? the engine having 2 sensors should give enough information to the ECU to know when to ignite?

Just every power stroke.

thanks Cliff.

Have to get started soon.. The winter has been strange, we barely had any snow, and now it's all gone (at least in southern Finland). This is not normal in March. Also temperatures have been on the mild side all year long.

A lot of water under the bridge.. and no progress.

I might be willing to sell the MyP8, since I'm not doing anything with it.  :(

Anyone interested, shoot me an e-mail (maamoottori {at} gmail ) or a PM; I rarely visit here.

Why no progress?

I've been lazy, the bike is in pieces at my fathers house for the past 2 years..  :o

Been cycling lately, on my e-mtb. Maybe this year I'll put the Ducati back together. Engine was in for valve check, belts and change of starter. Also changed all the swingarm bearings. PITA to get the swingarm off.